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7. What is the difference between "in-line" and "dependent" bass trombones? Which is better?
I get asked all the time about the differences between dependent and in-line bass trombone valve systems and which I prefer - and why. This is a very involved issue, so in an effort to avoid leaving the reader confused, I will try to provide as comprehensive an answer as possible, while perhaps erring on the side of "too much" information.
The best place to start is with a description of the two systems, and I can find no better one than that which was posted in 1996 on the trombone-l email list by Dennis Clason, a trombonist in New Mexico. I quote Dennis below with his permission, for which I am grateful. Dennis wrote (I have deleted a sentence in Dennis' post that contained some inaccurate historical information about the invention of the in-line valve system. More on that, below):
There are two valve systems in use for double valve bass trombones. The dependent (also called stacked) system places the first (F) valve on the neckpipe of the trombone, and the second valve on the F attachment tubing. Because the second valve is on the F attachment, depressing the valve lever has no effect unless the thumb valve is depressed. Thus the expression "dependent." Dependent systems were developed first as a response to a few composers treating the bass trombone as a completely chromatic instrument from low B (rather than low C). Bartok figured prominently among that group.
The in-line or independent valve system places both valves on the neckpipe; hence they can operate "independently" of one another. In-line systems have the disadvantage of always blowing against the resistance of two valves, instead of one. The resistance can be reduced by tricks like overbore valve sections, Thayer (and Thayer-inspired) valves, open wrap, etc. Olds made the first production in-line valve system basses in the mid 70s. The other manufacturers have since followed suit, and some do not produce dependent rotor basses (Conn, Holton, and Benge).
In-line systems are thought to provide some added facility, because a fourth overtone series is available. While that is an indisputable fact, the advantage it provides is questionable, especially with some of the second valve tunings in use today.
Conventional valved instruments went through a long history of experimentation before the currently accepted convention of 2-1-3-4 semitones on the 1st through 4th valves was accepted. Tuning of the second valve on bass trombones is going through a similar period of experimentation. The dependent system designer has something of an easier task: because the second valve is not available in isolation, she can select her favorite fundamental for the combined valve tuning.
The independent system designer doesn't have that luxury. After all, the intent of the design is to give the player unlimited access to that section of tubing. This means that something will be mistuned. If we choose to tune the combined valves to a true pitch (relative to A-440), then one valve or the other will be mistuned when used in isolation. By mistuned, I mean that with the handslide closed, the fundamental produced by that valve alone doesn't belong to the 12 tone equally tempered chromatic scale. Conversely, if the designer chooses to make each valve produce a true pitch in isolation, the combined valves are mistuned (in the same sense used above). It's basically the same problem 3-valve instrument players have -- 1+3 is sharp, and you have to lower the pitch somehow.
Dependent systems were originally sold with a combined valve flat E tuning. After all, the goal was to give the player a low B, and the flat E tuning accomplished that. Prior to the advent of double valve basses, the player who needed a low B would pull the tuning slide to retune the F attachment to E. This was an obvious starting point for the second valve — push a button instead of pulling a slide. One might argue that pulling a slide is a more natural act for a trombonist than pushing a button, but I won't. After these things had been around for a while, bass players began to think that low E was not particularly helpful, and something else might help more. After all, with low E tuning, the B is still down at the bottom of the slide stocking. Bach Corporation makes the most comprehensive set of second valve crooks that I'm aware of: they come as Eb, D and Db. The most commonly used second valve tuning (can I say the standard tuning?) is D. With this tuning, a bass trombone has fundamentals of Bb (open), F (valve 1) and D (valve 1 and 2). Incidentally, the Bb (open) and F (thumb) can be taken as given.
The D tuning makes a "pedal" Bb available at the end of the handslide. Some people refer to that as "7th" position, but a D trombone with a Bb slide length doesn't have a seventh position — the note is actually in 5th position on the D trombone. And I probably should note here that one cannot take an E pull as necessarily present on the F attachment of a double valved bass. It ought to be, but there are too many exceptions.
The early independent systems I've seen were tuned as G on the second valve (Olds also followed this pattern, Holton provides a G crook for their double rotor bass). This tuning gives as additional series (G [finger], very flat Eb [both valves]). I surmise that people converting from dependent systems had some problems with that, because the stock tuning on these instruments now is a very flat G on the finger valve. This gives fundamentals in the following series: D (both valves), and sharp Gb (finger). Note that this is the same as the tuning for the Bb/F/D dependent system. The only difference is the availability of a very flat G (or sharp F#) on the finger valve alone. Any technical advantages (and there are some) are derived from the availability of this "mistuned" valve by itself.
There are alternate crooks available for some independent basses. Bach sells crooks for the 50B3O in G, D, and C. Edwards sells a D crook, and will build your horn in G or "flat" G at your preference. With D tuning on the finger, low B is in 1st with both valves down. Using C on the finger, you get something akin to a flat Bb or possibly A with both valves, I would guess (I've never played this tuning and have no way of checking it out.) The tuning information is summarized in the table below.
| Valve System | Open | Thumb | Thumb & Finger | Finger |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Dependent ("stacked") | B flat | F | D | -- |
| B flat | F | E (1) | -- | |
| B flat | F | E flat (2) | -- | |
| B flat | F | D flat (3) | -- | |
| B flat | F | C (4) | -- | |
| Independent ("in-line") | B flat | F | flat E flat | G |
| B flat | F | D | flat G | |
| B flat | F | B | D (3) | |
| B flat | F | ?? flat B flat or A | C (3) |
Notes:
Despite the fact that it was written many years ago (in 1996), Dennis' description is the best and most comprehensive I have seen of the two types of bass trombone and valve set-ups and their tuning.
For a detailed history of the development of the double-valve bass trombone, readers are referred to my article, "Evolution: The Double-Valve Bass Trombone," published in the International Trombone Association Journal, Vol. 43, No. 3 (July 2015). You can view and download that article HERE.
The first bass trombone I purchased was a dependent valve Bach 50-B2. I bought that instrument at Giardinelli's Music Shop in New York City in 1975. At the time it had two side by side trigger paddles, which was the standard dependent issue (with rollers on the triggers; Holton had something called the "magic bar"). I quickly had it converted to a thumb (1st valve) and third finger (second valve) operation.
In 1983, when I bought a second horn, I had it converted to a single valve instrument with one Thayer valve (#B6 from Ed Thayer's first batch of his bass trombone axial-flow valves) and in July 1984, the ITA Journal published an article I wrote called, In Defense of the Single Valve Bass Trombone. You can view and download that article HERE. I haven't looked at that article for many years (I write these words in 2025) so I pulled it out recently and realized I still agreed with my basic premise: that a single valve bass trombone works spectacularly well in almost all symphonic playing situations, and that the dependent valve double valve bass trombone has some significant advantages to the in-line system.
Ultimately, it comes down to a matter of personal preference, and there's no "right" system to use. But here are a few quotations from my 1984 article.
"But I have strayed from my thesis - that for the symphony bass trombonist, neither of these double valve bass trombones are wholly satisfactory [or necessary]. . ."
"The answer, of course, is that prehistoric dinosaur, the single valve bass trombone. I made a rather careful survey of the roughly 131 pieces of symphonic music I've played over the past three years in the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra (not including 'pops' concerts - more on them later) and I came up with a rather startling discovery - 126 of the pieces, of 96.5%, required the use of only one valve. Three pieces had isolated low B's that necessitated a 'pull' of the F slide (more on that later, too) and only two pieces (Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra and his Miraculous Mandarin ) absolutely required a double valve trombone. . . Virtually everything could be played on one valve! The choice seems clear."
"Now . . . wait a minute," you may say. "Don't tell me that you can play technically difficult things on just a single valve horn." To which I will say, "Show me some in the symphonic literature I can't!" It's a myth that the orchestral literature is full of technically impossible parts to play. Among those pieces I've done with only one valve are Ein Heldenleben, Die Walkure (the complete opera), the Berg Violin Concerto, The Planets, all the Brahms symphonies, Pines of Rome; the list goes on. Sure, it takes a little thinking, but I have never felt uncomfortable with using just one valve. It is the same logical principle tenor players that use a 'straight horn' instead of an F-attachment trombone use:"Why play on equipment that I don't need most of the time?
"In [commercial, studio, pops] situations (and in the world of brass quintet playing, for that matter), there is no denying that the double valve horn gives you greater flexibility and allows you to play those truly difficult technical passages [easier]. . . I use my double valve horn at any rehearsal where I don't know what to expect. . ."
"In the October 1983 ITA Journal I wrote an article (Bass Trombone Equipment Survey. Volume XI, Number 4. October 1983. Pages 22-23.) that surveyed the equipment used by 24 of the 29 major American symphony orchestra bass trombonists. The results were very interesting. In brief, of the 24 players, three used single valve horns as their primary instrument and 21 use double valves. But of those who used double-valve bass trombones, only nine are 'in-line.'" You can view and download this article HERE.
To be fair, that survey of bass trombone equipment used by major American symphony orchestra players was conducted in 1983. A lot has changed since then, and the marketplace has flipped from a preference to dependent-valve bass trombones to iin-line bass trombones. Still, I have played many more orchestral pieces in the intervening years an,d if anything, I have found that a greater percentage of pieces can be played by only one valve. "Can be played" is different than "desire to play," though. There is no doubt that two valves can make life easier at times. To quote Dennis Clason again:
"There is a difference between a passage that requires a second valve, and one made easier by its presence. A passage that requires a second valve has both B and F appearing. We could argue all summer about passages made easier with the second valve."
When I worked with YAMAHA to develop a new bass trombone, we made the YBL-822G as a dependent bass trombone with a removable second valve so it can be used as a single valve bass trombone (there is a photo along with specifications of this instrument on the YAMAHA website, HERE.
My preference for dependent over in-line remains today. I have tried in-line trombones. For one season when I was a member of the Boston Symphony, I tried to use my in-line bass trombone (with two Thayer axial-flow valves) regularly. But I felt it simply did not offer enough advantages for me to switch from my dependent valve bass trombone. Frankly, I have not seen much to recommend in-line instruments, as the loss of the goose neck is a major sacrifice in the sound. Call me a dinosaur, but that's my view. Even with Thayer valves (I played on them for many years), in-line horns sound different than dependent or single valve ones - you're still blowing through two valves ALL the time, even for the 80%+ of notes we play on the "open" horn. Also, with the dependent system, one can active the second valve while playing a note on the open trombone, then slur from an open note to a double valve note by pressing the first valve. All valves have springs, and no two springs have the same tension. When one goes from the open horn to a double valve note and has to depress both valves at the same time (as one has to do with the in-line configuration), the alignment of the slur is often not tidy. The multitudinous positions one can use for various notes on the in-line horn - this is the primary selling point for advocates of the in-line system - simply aren't enough of an advantage for me, as a good player with a good technique can get around to most things in most pieces with just one valve, and certainly with an in-line setup. Some people use a double valve as a "crutch." For instance, I don't know any bass trombonist who would play a middle F-natural in first position using the first (F-attachment) valve. It simply doesn't sound good. Then, why do so many in-line trombone players play middle G-flat in first position using the second (G-flat) valve? That doesn't sound good to my ear, especially at a loud dynamic. I have seen and heard so many students play Wagner's "Ride of the Walkure" and play that middle F-sharp in first position using the second valve alone. It simply doesn't sound as good as playing that F-sharp in fifth position. Even bass trombonists need to develop a good technique.
But there are those who love the in-line bass trombone, and there are many method books that help players explore the additional slide position options that these kinds of instruments provide. These include methods by (click on the names and you'll be directed to a website that gives further information about these books) Blair Bollinger, Eli Aharoni, and Chris Sharpe.
My advice is simply to try out the different set-ups and get what you like and what works for you. One person's passion is another person's poison. Some people intensely dislike the dependent valve bass trombone, finding it limiting. Others can't imagine life with only one valve. Others love the advantages of the dependent-valve bass trombone. And still others can't imagine their musical life without an in-line valve bass trombone. Just because in-line doesn't work for me doesn't mean it's "bad." I've never told a student what to buy and I never will. The trombone that's best for you is the trombone that works best for you. Give things a fair shake and try before you buy.
Whenever I start wondering where the equipment craze will take us, I remember the great recordings with Fritz Reiner and the Chicago Symphony made in the 1950's. At that time, Edward Kleinhammer was playing a Bach 1.5 G mouthpiece on his Conn single valve bass trombone. He sure sounded pretty great to my ears.
The discussion continues because, after all, we're talking about an issue of personal choice and preference. It is important for each of to keep in perspective the fact that there is no "right" system that works "best" for everyone. While each player will of course feel that the system they play is "best" for them, it is simply not possible to put an imprint on a valve set up (or mouthpiece, leadpipe, bell weight or any kind of equipment, for that matter) that is THE choice for everyone. Each person can have cogent, persuasive reasons why they like what they play and those reasons are rarely "right" and "wrong" - they are simply "different." There are very few "truth statements" when it comes to selecting a trombone - whether to play a dependent or in-line bass trombone is not one of them. It is a matter of personal taste and preference.
For new players, the options available in purchasing a horn are myriad. There are good players on every kind, style, make, wrap, and type of trombone. Every instrument has something to offer - and that's the great thing about the free market, we have all these (sometimes confusing) choices. There are fine players that use single, dependent and in-line systems; I have had students over the years that have gone on to have successful careers in orchestras that play in-line and dependent valve bass trombones. It really is less what you play than how you play.
Dennis Clason concludes his thoughts on the matter thusly:
"Like most things in life, your instrument and its tuning is a matter of paying your money and taking your choice. There is no single answer that's right for everybody. As a consequence, it's a mistake to assume that someone else's solution is necessarily right for you. Consider what kind of playing you do, and use the equipment that makes your playing easier."
Following up on this thought, may I add one word of caution for young players: don't buy an instrument (or mouthpiece, or anything in the world, for that matter) just because "Joe Bigname" uses it. Buy it because YOU like it. Of course you should get advice from different people, inquire of people whom you respect, and check out what your peers are using; contributions to the Trombone-l electronic discussion list or TromboneChat can be very helpful. But in the end, make an informed, personal decision and buy (or use) what YOU like. As I said earlier, one person's passion is another person's poison. Try everything.
Remember these lines from Paul Hindemith's poem, "Das Posthorn" from the 4th movement of his Alto Horn Sonata (which, by the way, is a terrific piece on either alto or bass trombone - I find it much more interesting to play or listen to than his "Trombone Sonata"):
(Hindemith's own translation:)
"The old is good not just because it's past,
nor is the new supreme because we live with it."
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